Within chapters 20 and 21 of Lost Souls the reader becomes fully aware of the relationship between Zillah and Nothing as father and son. Though they both now know of this relationship, they passionately continue their incestuous activities. Do you think the lack of concern, guilt, or feelings of wrong-doing regarding this relationship stems more from the vampiric nature of the two or from their personal character? If they were both completely human do you think their feelings would be different? (Sarah S.)
In chapter 21, Nothing ponders the fact that he is involved in an intense sexual relationship with his father, but he can't seem to make himself feel ashamed or regretful of it. He doesn't even feel offended by the idea of his non-vampire friends having sex with their non-vampire fathers. He even thinks, "were members of his race born with some sort of amoral instinct that shielded them from the guilt of killing to stay alive? " and later, when it's mentioned that they should eat Zillah and Ann's baby, Brite writes, "The idea did not strike Christian as particularly immoral, but it made him sad." What do you think about this? Do you agree with Nothing's idea that vampires are born with an amoral instinct? If so, when do you think these vampires begin to develop that instinct? Additionally, why do you think the vampires in this novel have such a liberal view on sexuality, so much so that they are not phased by things like age or incest? Is it for the same reason that they can kill without guilt? (Jillian G.)
Do you think that Steve has jealousy for Ghost's new mysterious friend Arkady Raventon? I think Steve and Ghost have a bond stronger than what they lead on to have. From learning about Poppy Z Brite and his whole sexual revolution and the change he made in his life, I think this reflects in his work, between these two characters. When Ghost meets Arkady it seems he's instantly drawn to him and Steve's reaction to him, isn't as welcoming. This is the line that I read that lead me to this thought.
"You said you brought yourself back from the dead," Ghost reminded Arkady as they finished descending the stairs. Behind him, Ghost heard Steve mutter something, but he ignored it." (Kevin S.)
In class we have discussed how Lost Souls is a multiplot novel, the various narrative strands of which eventually converge. Given that the novel is a well-known vampire tale an example of gothic horror, what do you think is the meaning and impact of the Steve/Ann plot? That is, how does the inclusion of this plot in what otherwise might be the story of Nothing's self-discovery affect the meaning and telling of a vampire narrative? (Lauren G)
I think that Nothing and Zillah’s lack of guilt for their incestuous relationship stems more from the vampiric nature of the two. In general, vampires seem to have very broad views on sexuality. Gender is pretty fickle to them, so familial relationships would probably be that way as well. If they were human, however, I do believe that their feelings would have been different. As vampires, when Nothing and Zillah found out what their true relationship was from Christian, it was like they finally realized why they had such a deep connection. Both were okay with it, not disgusted by what they had done. As humans, they probably would have been disgusted.
ReplyDeleteNothing also shows his lack of feelings for his “real family” when he feeds on Wallace with the other vampires, killing his grandfather with them. So it does not surprise me that Nothing did not show any concern for Ann after Zillah impregnated her. He saw through Ann exactly what happened to his own mother, Jessy.
I think Steve and Ghost do have a very strong bond. Earlier in the book, we learned how they became friends. Steve protected Ghost and in turn Ghost truly understands Steve. That being said, they both need each other in some sense. I definitely think Steve is jealous of Ghosts new relationship and I don't blame him. I think it's justifiable because Ghost is so important to Steve, and one of the only people he can depend on, so his jealousy is probably a manifestation of fear for losing Ghost to someone else. I also think Steve is naturally protective of Ghost and skeptical of anyone else being involved with him.
ReplyDeleteWhat I make of the Steve/Ann plot throughout Lost Souls is the idea of humanity being thrown into this supernatural world, and how it is affected by that. Steve and Ann are, for the most part, the most human characters in the book, and yet they react to the temptations of the vampires differently; while Ann is seduced by Zillah, Steve violently rejects the vampire culture (even though his band Lost Souls? is somewhat a part of the goth culture). By incorporating these two characters, it becomes more than just a vampire tale, but a tale of what it means to be human from BOTH the vampire perspective as well as the human perspective.
ReplyDeleteThe incestous relationship between Ghost and Zillah would be way more disturbing, except for the mention of Jessy and Wallace having sex before Jessy runs away. While Wallace feels disgusted by the act, when describing it there's a sort of sensous delight just like with Zillah and Nothing. If anything I feel like Brite was kind of giving a nod to the hypocrisy involved with thinking Zillah and Nothing are disgusting, but the reader not automatically despising Wallace for engaging in the same activity even though he's a human.
I do think that the distinction between Nothing referring to the vampire as "his race" and the seeming lack of boundaries interesting. This book is unique in how it puts humans and vampires as completely different species, a more biological perspective as opposed to mythical. Even the difference between vampires and the two twins seen at the end of the book (who suck out beauty, not blood) creates a sort of species distinction within the world of the supernatural. I think it is understandable then that they would have very different standards/social norms, since they are a being completely separate from humanity.
Sarah's question is similar to mine, so we may have been thinking similarly when writing our questions. I think that because of their vampiric nature, they don't have any concern for typical human morals. It also makes things a little different because Nothing never knew Zillah as his father and Zillah doesn't age, so he still looks young and beautiful. It is odd though to me that Nothing mentioned that he didn't even find it wrong for his friends at home to have relationships with their fathers. I am also led to believe that this lack of concern about incest has something to do with the nature of the vampire because Jessy so badly wanted to be a vampire and she seduces her father seemingly with the idea that that makes her more vampire-like.
ReplyDeleteI find Steve and Ghost to have a very symbiotic relationship throughout the novel. There are very few passages in the text that have the two separated from each other; and usually when they are split up, there is a problem with one or the other. Even under the strain of Steve having raped Ann and the vampires arriving in Missing Mile, we still see a strong dependence from Steve and Ghost for one another. Ghost mentions several times that he almost wishes that their hearts could fuse together to lessen the pain and tragedy that they were facing. We see that Steve needs Ghost, and Ghost needs Steve.
ReplyDeleteI believe Steve becomes quite jealous and afraid of Arkady when they meet and he introduces himself to the two of them. We have learned that one of the main things pulling him towards Ghost is the unnatural sense around him; the strange power he possesses, how he can see Steve for who he truly is. Arkady is from this world of magic in which Ghost's grandmother has had a large influence. He can relate to Ghost like Steve never could, from the point more like his grandmother than a normal human being. Steve has already lost Ann and has had to leave his home of Missing Mile, if only temporarily; Steve is extremely afraid that more of his life could slip away from him. I think Steve wonders about what actually he can do for Ghost like all the things that Ghost does for him, so he feels insignificant and overshadowed by Arkady and his magical presence. The fact that Arkady immediately offers them a place to stay gives Steve even more of an impression of being more use to Ghost than himself. Arkady is able to provide shelter for Ghost while Steve couldn't find them a place to stay.
But as Ghost has his midnight encounter with Arkady and almost lets Arkady use his body, Steve angrily stops this from happening. He finds he does have a purpose for helping Ghost, as a voice of reason and strength to support Ghost, who, due to his psychic abilities, is almost too empathetic for others and will unreasonably use himself to help others. After this encounter, the two go back to their bed and have a very intimate moment between the two. Ghost kisses Steve, but still not in a sexual way; it almost feels as if Ghost just wants to make their spirits connect, if only for a moment, to show his appreciation for Steve and that he would not be able to be replaced by anybody.
~Anthony Jarman
I think my answer kind of goes along with either of the first two questions regarding Zillah and Nothing. Honestly, when I read that Nothing and Zillah weren't really going to be changing anything I wasn't surprised. I supposed that finding exotic or strange things like incest or pansexuality is something that I don't find odd for novels involving the supernatural or just vampires. I think vampires are always used as a species that experiments and is always open minded--especially sexually--about things. I also think that the fact that age doesn't play a big part is because they all seem to stop aging appearance wise at some point. I do think that some of the incest part is due to character traits as I would assume that maybe if Nothing had been around Zillah growing up that he would perhaps find it more disgusting to interact sexually with him, but since he didn't I find it hard to believe that he really truly sees him as a parental figure.
ReplyDelete(Micaela M.)
I don't think that it's at all surprising that Zillah and Nothing continued their sexual relationship, even upon discovering they were father and son. Actually, I wasn't even surprised that they were father and son, because there were a lot of hints in the earlier parts of the novel. The fact that they're vampires obviously contributes to the continuation of their relationship. The concepts of morality and family are human constructs, and Nothing and Zillah simply aren't human. They may look like humans and may have the same basic functions and needs as humans, but ultimately they are not constrained by the rules of a society that they do not belong to. Also, as soon as Nothing and Zillah met, they felt a strong sexual connection to each other. They started out as lovers, not as father and son. They don't feel any familial connection because Zillah was not an actual father to Nothing. Even when Nothing did have a sort of father figure, he rejected him, so obviously Nothing doesn't see family as important or sacred.
ReplyDeleteI believe that this behavior and lack of disgust is due to both the vampiric nature of the characters and their individual circumstances. As we have read in other vampire novels such as Dracula vampires are sexual creatures that often do not have a preference in sexual partners. They seek sexual encounters frequently and have multiple partners. As you can see throughout chapters 20 and 21 the vampires mix and mingle amongst themselves and humans in order to fulfill their sexual cravings. Nothing has sexual relations with both Zillah and Christian within the same day, with not more than a couple hours between each encounter. This shows the casualness of sex within the vampire community. On the personal level however, I believe that above all, Nothing has a missing gap that is filled with the love of his father, both physically and emotionally. Although this is extremely repulsive to everyone else, to Nothing it is almost therapeutic. He is lost so he is trying to find love to fill the void inside of him. With Zillah he feels he can fill that void in two ways, both the love from a parent and the love of a companion. I think the feeling of nothingness he had felt inside for so long had caused him to be immune of most feelings that a normal human could feel. The following passage expresses this, “He wasn't sure he could ever have felt the things expected of him in the normal world, not even when he had been an unwilling part of it.“ This shows how he had always been immune to these feelings and even later in the passage where he mentions how he would feel if he found out his friends had relations with their fathers, he only finds it gross because their fathers are unattractive and not because he feels its gross or wrong. I think his feeling of nothingness throughout these years has caused him to let go of his views of what is right and wrong and instead only focus on the feelings of love he is receiving from Zillah.
ReplyDeleteI think that Zillah is just a lost soul himself and he has been living a reckless life for such a long time that he is starting to go crazy. Christian even mentions that Zillah is starting to go mad because all of this partying and fighting throughout the years is catching up to him. I think it gives him a sick pleasure that he is having sexual relations with something that he created. I also think this could also be due to his narcissistic behavior. Zillah is known for being beautiful and using it to his advantage. He may find a narcissistic pleasure in making love to Nothing because Nothing is essentially an extension of him and is the next best thing to him making love with himself. This feeling of accomplishment is shown when Nothing finds out that he is his son.
The idea of them continuing their sexual interaction is really interesting to me, not because I’m weird or anything, but it almost reflects a cultural type of situation that we see in society. Every culture has their own unique practices and when people don’t fit that mold or are on the outside looking in they kind of make judgements about these different groups. I find this really interesting because we usually see this in real life between different ethnic and religious groups, but in this novel we see it between different species. To us, these practices are super disgusting but to vampires it may be normal and completely acceptable, which is why I believe they have no problem because of the practices in relation to them being vampires. They would probably be extremely disgusted by what they’ve done if they were humans because that is a practice that is frowned upon. I think its cool to see those cultural distinctions from humans and vampires.
ReplyDeleteI think the vampires in Lost Souls are purposely made amoral, for the sake of excitement. I think that if these vampires were to feel moral, there would be another whole dimension to this - making it a very complicated story. Their lack of moral compass is based in 'cultural' roots and in essence allow for the story to unravel the way it does. The most instinctive thing we have moral high grounds upon are the killing of another human being. I personally think that the majority of people think killing another human(s) is the worst someone can do. When that is taken away from these vampires, when they just kill people to kill and feed, there isn't really anything 'bad' left. So, I think a lot of it has to do with our dimensions of good and bad, when to them it just isn't. I guess you could compare it to us killing animals and eating them. At the end of the day, that's just our food but to a vampire that's how they would see it. Not to defend the vampires, obviously, just another point of view to think about!
ReplyDeleteDifferent characteristics between human versus vampires are recurring theme in novels we have been reading in the class so far. In Lost Souls, the writer deals with amorality of vampires. Zillah, even after knowing the fact that Nothing is his own son, and vice versa, they continually get engaged in "incestuous activities." Although many of us would feel disgusted by their actions, no one would judge them wrong since they are vampires and the root of vampires is being evil and sinful. It could be something that many of us neglected in portraying vampires in our mind which also means that maybe we viewed vampires as more of humanlike and wanted them to at least keep the last line of moralities. If the they were two humans getting engaged in incestuous activities, I would have just closed the book and just conclude that this book is not worth reading it.
ReplyDeleteThroughout the novel Steve and Ghost have been shown to have a very strong relationship. While they both seem to rely on each other a lot, I think that Steve needs Ghost more than Ghost needs him. Even when they first met, it is Steve who feels drawn to Ghost and makes an effort to talk to him. After Steve separates himself from Ann, he uses Ghost in order to make it through his days. Because of this I think it is easy to see why Steve would be jealous of Ghost getting close to anyone else. While it is obvious that Ghost really cares about Steve, I think the fact that Arkady also has some "powers" makes Ghost want to get closer to him.
ReplyDeleteFrom historical to contempory texts the recurrent theme of seemingly sexual insatiability has underlined many motifs behind the vampiric characters. The notion of sexual interaction being a matter that is solely objective has been taken to a new extreme in this novel, and the relationship between Zillah and Nothing is a prime example of just that. The created vampire in this novel is one completely detached from any sense of a humanistic morality, so I am not surprised with the negligence Nothing and Zillah share towards the derivation of their relationship. The connotation the action of engaging in sexual activity has gained and the assumed parameters of are all the products of traditional human beliefs and morals. Vampires are not subject to these stigmas, so we cannot expect them to exercise within, or even recognize human social norms.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the lack of guilt and shame that would normally stem from an incestuous relationship is absent between Zillah and Nothing. This is majorly true due to both of them being vampires, since vampiric sexuality seems to bend the conventions of normalcy. This sexual deviancy could also stem from their character types, but it makes more sense viewing these acts through a vampiric lens. If Zillah and Nothing were humans, then I believe there may be some silent guilt that these characters would undergo.
ReplyDeleteIt was said earlier in the course that a vampire novel is about what it means to be human. Lost Souls is very caught up in examining human morality through the eyes of the Vampires, who are a different race entirely. We see they occasionally share our sense of morals and values and occasionally they ignore them entirely. The Steve and Ann plot also explores what it means to be human, but while the vampires were in a way trying to see how close they could be to human, Steve and Ann are an experiment in how far they could drift and still be human.
ReplyDelete-Rick R.
It's interesting that a lot of us have addressed the concept of vampire morality versus human morality in terms of incest and sexuality, but not in terms of "killing to stay alive," as Jillian brings up. Human society commodifies what it kills and consumes--trees, pigs, chickens, natural areas etc--and there is distance in that. But Lost Soul's vampires have relationships as humans have relationships, and that they must kill humans to whom they are so similar perhaps leads Nothing to ponder his race's relationship with its prey, as well as his own with Zillah. It doesn't seem that vampires are amoral, but that consumption drives their existence completely. In Zillah and Nothing's relationship, that which they want more of is personal satisfaction, which can't be had within the bounds of social morals. Humans, though we consume like crazy and are just as hedonistic, for some reason place huge value on social perceptions and doing what "everyone else" does. Hence, we struggle with social constructs of morality and guilt and incest more than Nothing and Zillah ever would. If vampires can love (Dracula...), they can't be expected to show it like humans would.
ReplyDeleteLike Giancarlo mentioned, vampires are completely detached from any sense of a humanistic morality. This is the reason that Zillah and Nothing continue their sexual relationship; even after they found out they were father and son. I think if Zillah and Nothing were humans, then there could be some guilt that changes their feelings.
ReplyDeleteSang K Hwang
I definitely believe that the lack of concern, guilt, and feelings of wrong-doing regarding the relationship between Zillah and Nothin comes from the vampiric nature of the two rather than their personal character. Vampires are very sexual creatures and as we discussed in class last time their sexual tendencies are much different than those of humans. They tend to not care who they perform sexual acts with, whether male or female, young or old, and in this case incest is apparently on the list of their sexual fantasies. This is obviously very different than the morality of humans, and since it seems that most vampires exhibit this crazy sexual nature it must be because they are in fact vampires and not because of their personal characters.
ReplyDeleteTed Pacyga
I think the Steve/Ann plot has the effect of bridging the gap between human characters and the vampire characters. By highlighting the complicated,often brutal relationship between Ann and Steve, the author makes the human that much more amoral and the vampire characters much more human. This makes the story much more than one about vampires and humans but instead about desire itself. Nothing seeks his past, Steve desires Ann, and Molochai and Twig seek pleasure. This I feel in the end is the purpose of the Steve/Ann narrative.
ReplyDelete-Brandon Wyatt
I think the Steve Ann plot is another mechanism used to make the connection of vampirism to humanity. We keep seeing in these literary works we read the authors' attempt to make the supernatural more human-like. Yes, vampires do things that are "sick and twisted" to the outside world, but so do humans. Humans can do violent acts, such as Steve's, just as much as vampires can do violent acts like sucking the blood out of a child. I think ultimately that the Steve Ann plot was included in order to make the vampires look more human.
ReplyDeleteAkanimoh E
I think that Zillah and Nothing’s incestuous relationship stems from a combination of their personal characteristics combined with their vampiric nature. I think that the vampiric nature plays a larger role in this relationship. Despite the fact that Nothing fears being alone as Christian points out, the incestuous relationship has more do with Nothing’s vampiric nature. As Nothing himself points out in pondering this question “things the rational daylight world would expect him to feel. But he could not force himself to feel them. In a world of night, in a world of blood, what did such pallid rules matter?” (106). Nothing’s insight seems to indicate that the morals of the daytime do not apply at night, and since vampires are traditionally, nocturnal and feed during the night they are not bound by any regular set of rules. However, I do not think that many of the elements associated with this vampiric nature, are exclusive to the vampires in Lost Souls. The morals of human and human relationships like that of Ann and Steve also seem to operate differently at night. Scenes that are associated with what can be considered “immoral” behavior seem to be more prevalent during the night even with humans. In this way I think that the vampiric nature goes a long way in explaining what it means to be human. All humans act “immoral,” in other words go against social or cultural norms at some time or another without necessarily feeling that what they are doing is wrong based on the way that they feel. Also “immoral” acts are more likely to occur under the cover of night when the rules of culture and society do not hold the sway they do during the daytime.
ReplyDelete"Lost Souls" uses sexuality to introduce characters and build upon the plot. Throughout the novel, nothing and his new vampire friends go on various sexual adventures with various other vampires and humans, many of those being rather homoerotic, showing how vampires believe in and practice "free sexuality". The human heterosexual relationship is a way for the author to show comparison of how the vampire's morals and sexual compass directly opposes that of Ann and Steve's. While this regular heterosexual relationship occurs, it does not make it any more right in the fact that they are very dysfunctional and have the same if not more problems than any other relationship in the story. Especially the scene where Steve forces himself on her. The author over and over again uses relationships and sexuality to introduce characters. The human one is as important as the vampires. (For Austin C)
ReplyDeleteConcerning Julian's question about the vampire's immorality, I think Nothing is a wonderful example of the loneliness vampires experience from their long life spans. The instinct to commit vices, in the case of Nothing, is a psychological escape for a vampire. Psychologically, it would be a heavy toll for one to live "forever" as a vampire would. From Nothing's perspective, he feels if he is going to be around "forever" it is only natural for him to embrace all the pleasures of life and live in a hedonistic way. Otherwise, he would feel trapped trying to live according to rules and the basic social constructs concerning sexuality, incest, and other things that are generally considered wrong.
ReplyDeleteI believe that this relationship stems from vampiric nature. They aren't human or mortal so why should they live by human rules. They are going to live forever, why would anyone care? Everyone who is human that could/would judge would probably die long before they even cared.
ReplyDeleteI think Poppy Z Brite is definitely playing Devils advocate as a trans-man he's using his thoughts of sexuality through his writing. The topic of incest even amongst various human sexuality may be viewed as wrong but within a vampire circle what are the laws and rules?